Old Hippy wrote:

FWIW- My son played 2nd year machine pitch this season. The machine was set to 38 mph. Guidelines allowed for 37-42 mph. So it doesn't sound like this kid is throwing all that hard. Also, LL has rules concerning pitch count, so it ain't like he will be pitching every game. I think the parents of the other teams need to get over it. I doubt they would complain if one of their kids could hit the ball out of the park every time he came up. Just goes to show you how it takes parents to wreck kid's sports.

well said hippy!!

stoney wrote:

jc wrote: stoney wrote: WRONG. it's little league for the kids not for the adults to decide. I've coached little league like most of us have and you get a wide arrange of talent. With your thinking and suggestions that he should be moved up, that means lil johnny bubbleblower, who is 9, and on the same team who doesn't know a grounder from a pop fly or which end of the bat to hold should be sent down to tee ball to learn the game and play at his LEVEL with 5 year olds. BULLSHIT not for adults to decide??!! are you nuts? of course adults decide the rules for little league. a player who is far more skilled and who is playing far below his talent level is exactly the same as a kid who is playings far above his. if there are options, neither situation should occur. our coaching experience obviously leads us to two entirely different postions on this. i think it is a diservice to a kid who has talent to play him in a situation that provides no competition for him/her. just like it is a desservice for the kids who have to play against players against whom they cannot legitimately compete. like i said, kids are moved up or down in competition all the time based on their skill level. whay this should be different is beyond me. I coached little league for two years and not once was a kid moved down out of his age group no matter how bad he sucked. Maybe that's a fundamental they apply in Okie but not here. Kids play in their age group. whether it's 7-8 yr olds or 9-10. A draft is conducted and what you get is what you get. Hell one year I had a team worse than the bad news bears. They smoked, cussed, and actually got into a bench clearing brawl with themselves, while the other team looked on. LOL. And yes jc i'll give you some credit: Kids are asked to play on traveling teams usually the best players. Never seen a kid who wasn't skilled make a traveling team but these traveling teams are still kept by age brackets an outstanding 7 year old does not nor have they ever played on a 10 year olds team. kid in this story should be allowed to pitch and the kids on the other teams need to try their best. The parents of these kids need to shut the hell up and quit crying and if anything work with their kids to make them better players against this piture. End of story: ONLY IN AMERICA (unless you are from okie where an outstanding 6 yr old can play on the varsity baseball team and a sucky 14 yr old is not assisting the lil ones but actually trying to hit the ball off the tee ) The star stays in his age bracket and really shines!! ALAS LIL LEAGUE IS FOR THE KIDS NOT THE PARENTS OR ADULTS TO DECIDE (notice no mention of the of the rules (which here is set by a governing body--baseball commision) or coach who ultimately decides where each kid plays) IF player A pitches better than batter b can hit tough shit!! Tight wad parents of player b, better be taking their kid to the batting cages for practice!! Instead of crying on the sidelines how unfair it is!!

i've seen (and had) kids moved up and down in age groups and between leagues for all sorts of reasons, primarily due to competition concerns. i have no idea if the kid can pitch very good and neither does anyone else on this board. all i know is what is in the articles - those say the kid's skill level is much higher than the other kids in the league. if that is not correct, then no corrective action is needed. case closed. what i do know is that kids need to play with kids who can compete against them. maybe they can't make that happen in this case. in which event, case closed. but. if they can make it happen, that's what they need to do.
adults decide everything in youth athletics. don't start acting like fred and making a bunch of ridiculous quibbling excuses when you say something stupid. just admit it and move on.

Great points hippy.

And FWIW, I always played "up" an age bracket on my traveling teams.

Cherrypicker wrote:

I always played "up" an age bracket on my traveling teams.

why

If this was a 14 yr old JV player, I could see the argument for moving him up to Varsity. Maybe even a slightly younger child, say upper junior high age moving to the high school JV team. But the 9-10 yr olds? NO, this is an age when a mixture of skill is normal, and probably a good thing.
I know when my 10 yr old played baseball, he hadn't ever played before, so he was probably the least skilled on the team. One of the other boys had played since he was old enough to walk. No one complained about him needing to move up to a higher age bracket. And even though my son sometimes got frustrated being one of the worse players on the team, he was still psyched about playing the next yr, til his dad threw a mis guided ball in very little light and my son broke his thumb, then got a bloody nose a week later during warm-ups at one of his games. Kinda turned him off baseball, lol.....
He played soccer a couple of years when he was younger and wants to do that again next year. He knows that since he's now 10, there will definately be more skillful players, and he is just fine with that, he'd rather play with a group of peers and not be as skilled, than have to play with kids alot younger than he is, just cause they are pretty much beginning players also.
Now on the other hand, my 6 yr old got to practice with his older brother, so while playing t-ball, he was actually able to play coach pitch. He had no problem playing at a lower skill level than most of his team, because they were actually his age, and he didn't want to play with a higher age bracket.
I believe at this age, let the kids play with their age group, they have plenty of time to go on to higher skilled levels when they're a little older.
At this age, sports are more about having fun than winning, and if you push them to be more competitive at too early of an age, you're just asking for trouble. Plus if you were to move a more skilled child up to a higher level when all he wants is to play with his peers, you could make him hate playing, and he's more likely to give up sports all together.
As hippy said, the parents complaining about this kids pitching ability, would be throwing a fit if they were told their child couldn't bat cuz he hits it out of the park everytime, or just hits too hard, I mean, come on, with that hard of a hit, someone is bound to get hurt!

Goldie28 wrote:

If this was a 14 yr old JV player, I could see the argument for moving him up to Varsity. Maybe even a slightly younger child, say upper junior high age moving to the high school JV team. But the 9-10 yr olds? NO, this is an age when a mixture of skill is normal, and probably a good thing. I know when my 10 yr old played baseball, he hadn't ever played before, so he was probably the least skilled on the team. One of the other boys had played since he was old enough to walk. No one complained about him needing to move up to a higher age bracket. And even though my son sometimes got frustrated being one of the worse players on the team, he was still psyched about playing the next yr, til his dad threw a mis guided ball in very little light and my son broke his thumb, then got a bloody nose a week later during warm-ups at one of his games. Kinda turned him off baseball, lol..... He played soccer a couple of years when he was younger and wants to do that again next year. He knows that since he's now 10, there will definately be more skillful players, and he is just fine with that, he'd rather play with a group of peers and not be as skilled, than have to play with kids alot younger than he is, just cause they are pretty much beginning players also. Now on the other hand, my 6 yr old got to practice with his older brother, so while playing t-ball, he was actually able to play coach pitch. He had no problem playing at a lower skill level than most of his team, because they were actually his age, and he didn't want to play with a higher age bracket. I believe at this age, let the kids play with their age group, they have plenty of time to go on to higher skilled levels when they're a little older. At this age, sports are more about having fun than winning, and if you push them to be more competitive at too early of an age, you're just asking for trouble. Plus if you were to move a more skilled child up to a higher level when all he wants is to play with his peers, you could make him hate playing, and he's more likely to give up sports all together. As hippy said, the parents complaining about this kids pitching ability, would be throwing a fit if they were told their child couldn't bat cuz he hits it out of the park everytime, or just hits too hard, I mean, come on, with that hard of a hit, someone is bound to get hurt!

if a kid values competition more than comraderie, then the kid should get competition. if it is about comradarie and that's what the kid values, then the kid should be able to get that comraderie. this kid apprently values comraderie and wants to play with his little buddies. no problem. play with them, but, if your skill level as a pitcher makes for an unfair competitive advantage, just don't pitch. when you start valuing competition more than comraderie, let the league find a spot for you where you can have some competition. simple fix. problem solved. case closed.

"unfair competitive advantage"


What is UNFAIR about him being good?

jc can't win this one and is reaching for anything out there!! go back to your study, your ethnic squables, and just annoying 5. lol

fred wrote:

"unfair competitive advantage" What is UNFAIR about him being good?

nothing. that is why he should play in a league and with other players who can compete against him. instead of against kids that he apparently can overwhelm and who cannot compete with him. that said, i have the perfect solution to this: he can play in that league and pitch, but has to play for a different team. then we'll see how much support he gets from his current coaches and all of his "little buddies".

stoney wrote:

jc can't win this one and is reaching for anything out there!! go back to your study, your ethnic squables, and just annoying 5. lol

thanks for the suggestions, stoner, but i think i'll just keep on posting to whatever threads suit me. and, because you were so nice with that advise, here's some for you - why don't you just keep on mouthpiecing for racists and bigots and bitching about everything instead of actually thinking about anything. you seem lots happier that way.

I think all the other countries should have quit so they wouldn't have to compete against the US who had the "unfair advantge" of Phelps.

Bad Bad Big Business and the Evil Corporation Warlords would NEVER have allowed that, Fred. But, there WAS talk about making Phelps move to a higher league and swim against some Dolphins.

fred wrote:

I think all the other countries should have quit so they wouldn't have to compete against the US who had the "unfair advantge" of Phelps.

olympics and little league. yet one more irrelevant comparison from fred the quibbler.

BanditBacker wrote:

Bad Bad Big Business and the Evil Corporation Warlords would NEVER have allowed that, Fred. But, there WAS talk about making Phelps move to a higher league and swim against some Dolphins.

quibbler II, mp-ing as usual.

This is the dumbest thing ever....

My oldest kid has played Baseball since he was 3. Like Hippy said, at the machine pitch age, the machines are set from 38-45 (here, it's 38 for the 7 year olds and 45 for the 8's).

My kid plays for a AAA level team and at 9 years old, we had 10 kids on our team...all 10 could throw 40 plus from the mound. 5 could throw 50 plus. At 10 years old, all ten could throw 45, 5 still at 50 plus and 2 at 60-62. This year they'll be 11 and I'm sure there'll be 3 or 4 that eclipse 60 from the hill. Granted, they are a AAA level team and from what I read not the same kind of team that is in that league. However, at 9 years old, 40 mph is nothing. Seriously. If it's anywhere in the wheelhouse, most 9 year olds should be able to tee off on that if they've been coached at all along the way. Remember, the machine threw harder than this kid did. Even at just an A level of baseball, there will be a kid on one out of every other team that can throw 40 plus.

Here's a novel idea: TAKE YOUR TEAM TO THE CAGES AND THROW HARD TO THEM AND TEACH THEM HOW TO LOAD AND BE READY FOR A KID WHO BRINGS IT A LITTLE!!! Nah, screw that...that would take effort. We'll just bitch about it until it goes away.

It's harder to hit a live arm than a machine...Harder to pick the ball up as it leaves the hand etc., but even at the YMCA league, you'll find 9 year olds throwing 40.

At 9 years old, it's "Real Baseball" No more "stealing after the ball crosses the plate and only after it crosses"...No more "Can't steal home on a passed ball". None of that crap. It's baseball.

I think it's pretty weak that a coach and a set of parents would pull thier kids from a game because there was one kid on the other team who was a better pitcher than thier kids were. Great lesson in life. If you can't win...quit.

Even at the level our team plays at, we come across unhittable pitchers. We had a game last year that had a manchild for a pitcher. this kid was 10, but he had the build of a 16 year old. There wasn't a gun on him, but I'd say he threw mid 60's. We had 2 kids hit him in 5 innings. Two. There was no complaining, no bitching and no quitting. Did our kids like it? Absolutely not. Our answer for it..."If you don't like it, hit him. If you can't hit him, get better". We lost that game 1-0. The kids were pissed, but they also learned from it.

Anyway, this 40 mph 9 year old is no freak of nature. Show up to ANY tournament in your home town with a speed gun on Sunday late afternoon and gun the 9 year old pitchers. I can GUARANTEE you every kid you gun will be over 40 mph.

It's truely a shame that the kids on that team had to disband because of this. It's even worse that the other parents/coaches of the other teams "got thier way" and taught thier kids to basicaly quit on the situation.

ha, now all of you "if i own it i should be able to do whatever i want with it" boys have a real dilema.
this league is not a part of "little league". it is not a public league. it is owned, paid for and maintained by the private businesses that sponsor it. it is also not a "competitive" league, but a recreational league full of 1st year players. the sponsors (who own and run the league) told the team to either stop pitching the kid or for the mom to move him to a higher competition league. the team said they would stop pitching him, but then went back on that agreement. the league (owned and run by private businesses) shut them down for that. (the fact that the kid had declined to play for a team coached by one of the primary owners/sponsors of the league may have been a factor, too. )
what a fucking mess. but thank god for private property rights where the owners of the league can do whatever they want. eh, fred, 5for, stoner, bb.

Beamer wrote:

This is the dumbest thing ever.... My oldest kid has played Baseball since he was 3. Like Hippy said, at the machine pitch age, the machines are set from 38-45 (here, it's 38 for the 7 year olds and 45 for the 8's). My kid plays for a AAA level team and at 9 years old, we had 10 kids on our team...all 10 could throw 40 plus from the mound. 5 could throw 50 plus. At 10 years old, all ten could throw 45, 5 still at 50 plus and 2 at 60-62. This year they'll be 11 and I'm sure there'll be 3 or 4 that eclipse 60 from the hill. Granted, they are a AAA level team and from what I read not the same kind of team that is in that league. However, at 9 years old, 40 mph is nothing. Seriously. If it's anywhere in the wheelhouse, most 9 year olds should be able to tee off on that if they've been coached at all along the way. Remember, the machine threw harder than this kid did. Even at just an A level of baseball, there will be a kid on one out of every other team that can throw 40 plus. Here's a novel idea: TAKE YOUR TEAM TO THE CAGES AND THROW HARD TO THEM AND TEACH THEM HOW TO LOAD AND BE READY FOR A KID WHO BRINGS IT A LITTLE!!! Nah, screw that...that would take effort. We'll just bitch about it until it goes away. It's harder to hit a live arm than a machine...Harder to pick the ball up as it leaves the hand etc., but even at the YMCA league, you'll find 9 year olds throwing 40. At 9 years old, it's "Real Baseball" No more "stealing after the ball crosses the plate and only after it crosses"...No more "Can't steal home on a passed ball". None of that crap. It's baseball. I think it's pretty weak that a coach and a set of parents would pull thier kids from a game because there was one kid on the other team who was a better pitcher than thier kids were. Great lesson in life. If you can't win...quit. Even at the level our team plays at, we come across unhittable pitchers. We had a game last year that had a manchild for a pitcher. this kid was 10, but he had the build of a 16 year old. There wasn't a gun on him, but I'd say he threw mid 60's. We had 2 kids hit him in 5 innings. Two. There was no complaining, no bitching and no quitting. Did our kids like it? Absolutely not. Our answer for it..."If you don't like it, hit him. If you can't hit him, get better". We lost that game 1-0. The kids were pissed, but they also learned from it. Anyway, this 40 mph 9 year old is no freak of nature. Show up to ANY tournament in your home town with a speed gun on Sunday late afternoon and gun the 9 year old pitchers. I can GUARANTEE you every kid you gun will be over 40 mph. It's truely a shame that the kids on that team had to disband because of this. It's even worse that the other parents/coaches of the other teams "got thier way" and taught thier kids to basicaly quit on the situation.

thanks for that good post, beam. very informative. it sounds to me like this kid should be playing on a aaa team instead of in a rec league filled with beginners.

I have no clue if he can or not....Like I said 40 mph is nothing (seriously, at that age, if he can only throw 40 he'll seldom pitch in a competitive league). There aren't enough details in the story. Maybe he can't catch. Maybe he's a 160 lb. ten year old who can't get around the bases with haste...Who knows. If all he's good at is pitching and nothing else...This is exactly where he should be playing.

Honestly though, if the kid throws 40 and throws strikes, that is EXACLTY what you'd want if you were the opposing coach/parents. Especialy in a beginner league. I don't know how much Baseball any of you are around at this age, but I'm around alot of it. My 10 year old played 120 or so games last year and my 6 year old played around 50. In a beginner league (which I guess this one is), "most" of the pitchers let loose of the ball and might hit the first baseman in the back of the head with it. A kid that throws strikes gives the kids a chance to hit. Otherwise, it's walk, walk, walk, walk, walk, walk, walk, walk, walk, walk, inning over/switch from sticks to gloves (most of those leagues will have a 7 run per inning rule). How does that teach a kid to hit? It doesn't, right? That is a coaches job. And it sounds like the coaches aren't taking the time to do it. Even at 40, the ball is coming in at a pretty good arc. Can you imagine what it would look like at 35?. Speaking of that, if this kid is throwing 40, how much faster is he throwing than the other kids? My 6 year old is by no means a gifted ball player (he's not too shabby though), but I'd bet he can eclipse 30. If some of these other kids are throwing....I dont' know, lets say 35 (hell, they are 9, they should be able to do that even with zero experience) was 5 mph a big difference? At least he threw strikes. I don't want to sound like I'm knocking the coaches either. Guys that coach a beginner team have way more work to do than a guy who coaches a travel team.

All that aside (and I'm sure there are tons of folks that disagree with me about everything I've already said), what about little Johnny standing in Centerfield. That kid catches 95 percent of the balls he can track. Toss him too. All of the decent shortstops...Out. Kick those kids to the curb. WHAT????? A first baseman that can CATCH!!!!! oh my god, he has got to go. It just seems odd that one kid that throws a little harder than the others and throws strikes gets the boot.

The whole "Don't pitch him anymore and it's ok" thing is dumb too. Yeah, he could play any other position on the field and I'm sure he'd do fine. Why deny the kid a chance to pitch when his place in the rotation came up? At 9 years old, they all want to pitch. Whether they can or not, they all want to take the hill and pitch. Some pick it up early and some don't, but even the ones that don't pick it up still want to do it. Denying him that opportunity by saying "keep him on the team but don't let him pitch" only hurts that kid, not the other teams.

I'd like to know if they keep score at these games. If they do, it's competitive IMO. If the final score determines a winner of the competition then there is competitivness being displayed.

I think the story has been tweaked a little and makes this kid sound like some kind of pitching freak of nature to have the reader feel sympathy towards all of the other teams. I dont' think they embellished, but they sure didn't offer up comparisons about the other teams and how hard those kids throw (or thier accuracy).

Quote:

My 10 year old played 120 or so games last year and my 6 year old played around 50

Just for clarity, I'm not one of those parents that force thier kids to do anything (except homework and use the words ma'am and sir). Both of them can quit at any time they want. I didn't force Baseball on either of them. The amount of games seems a bit extreme (even for me), but they love it. Ask either of them "What do you want to do today?". Baseball with be the answer. I'm so sick of playing catch that I never want to see another glove again.

if there was an alternative i wouldn't let my kids "play down" in competition. i've seen kids who wanted to "play down" (and parents who wanted their kids to do that) so they could be much all that much better than the other kids they were playing with. if that is the case here (and it sounds like it is), there were compeitive level teams and leagues for this kid to play on.
bottom line: the league's owners (private businesses, not public entities) gave his mom and his coach alternatives to resolve the issue. she and the coach lied to the league. the league's owners then made the decision to correct the problem themselves.